PowerHouse on Linux
Jon (Jarod) Hawks
hawksj@yahoo.com
Wed, 9 Apr 2003 07:32:59 -0700 (PDT)
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This discussion caught my eye and I just wanted to add a commentary. It might be helpful if the thinking on PH licensing by Cognos Marketing would change back to the pricing for a 4GL tool that also spans the web. Traditionally, we have seen a trend to license "like the competition". I think this does not separate them from the pack. I have had many experiences with companies such a Borland and they continually repackage their products to force licensing. I was quoted $946,000 for global licensing and after contacting the VP's it became $90K, only what we needed. Many are forcing upgrades to their products. I have seen a lot of integration with upper case tools, often Rational Rose, and the lower case code generation fails. Cognos can easily overcome RR, together J, Jbuilder and products that claim to integrate with ERWin. They can also overcome crap like Informatica and Sagent. Don't listen to the authors. Listen to the people who work the tools and the solutions. If PH can!
remain a viable product for Cognos, it should learn to repackage it back to what it was. A 4GL. It's capable of covering all the ground that vendors split into specialites to sell products that, even though specialized, cannot cover the ground PH does. Component architecture was best when using PH. They have to overcome Java thinking now, too much time has caused the workforce to favor it as cobol was once favored. Still, there is a chance. Solutions are still not what they should be and PH has the opportunity to fully integrate all objects and most case technologies. They only need to go back into the lab, by themselves, and not give away their secrets to Microsoft and Oracle, and others who benefited by partnering in the labs. IBM has traditionally repackaged everything and resold the same old widget over and over again. PH could do well to become and embedded product for the Linux world. The 3rd world is packed with Linux. A great way to force the leading technology pro!
ducts to integrate to PH.
"Edis, Robert" <Robert.Edis@blistex.com> wrote:I agree with Chuck. As an Australian working in the USA I find the argument that AUD6,000 for a 5 user license a bit weak. PH consultant costs in the USA range from USD30 to USD200+ per hour. I remember the rates in Oz to be similar (in AUD). Given that a business app can be developed in PH - without requiring the client to purchase new hardware/Os/DBMS - in between 2/3 to 9/10 less time that in say VB or Java the license cost is irrelevant as MOST of the development costs will be in personnel. Compare AUD6,000 with what Oracle would charge for Developer? Blue-----Original Message-----
From: chuck.reinke [mailto:chuck.reinke@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 2:39 PM
To: Craig Lalley; Jeff Hoffman; powerh-l@lists.swau.edu
Subject: Re: PowerHouse on Linux
Well this is an interesting economic analysis. Programming talent must be little valued in Australia. In the US the cost you cite might buy 2 to 10 days of consulting effort in the US. If programmer makes about $10.00/ hr where you are, maybe it's a real advantage to develop and maintain a system in C++, visual basic or something like that. ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Lalley To: Jeff Hoffman ; powerh-l@lists.swau.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 3:54 PMSubject: Re: PowerHouse on Linux
Jeff Hoffman <wonicon@optushome.com.au> wrote:
Another reason that PH will not advance is cost, I was just looking at PH
8.41 on Win2000 and if I developed a system for a customer there would be
immediately a $6,000 ($australian approx 3,000 $US) upfront cost for just
the PH licenece (one developer / five user run-time / five user data
access) I would then have to recover development costs. This would put the
Kybo on most projects.
I remember when the current OS that was happening was OS/2 vs the yet to be released Win95, circa 1995. That year I went to Comdex.
IBM was trying to sell thier developers kits for $395 (I think, it may have been more.)
Microsoft was giving them away by the handful.
The rest is history.
-Craig
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<P>This discussion caught my eye and I just wanted to add a commentary. It might be helpful if the thinking on PH licensing by Cognos Marketing would change back to the pricing for a 4GL tool that also spans the web. Traditionally, we have seen a trend to license "like the competition". I think this does not separate them from the pack. I have had many experiences with companies such a Borland and they continually repackage their products to force licensing. I was quoted $946,000 for global licensing and after contacting the VP's it became $90K, only what we needed. Many are forcing upgrades to their products. I have seen a lot of integration with upper case tools, often Rational Rose, and the lower case code generation fails. Cognos can easily overcome RR, together J, Jbuilder and products that claim to integrate with ERWin. They can also overcome crap like Informatica and Sagent. Don't listen to the authors. Listen to the people who work the tools and the solutions. If PH !
can remain a viable product for Cognos, it should learn to repackage it back to what it was. A 4GL. It's capable of covering all the ground that vendors split into specialites to sell products that, even though specialized, cannot cover the ground PH does. Component architecture was best when using PH. They have to overcome Java thinking now, too much time has caused the workforce to favor it as cobol was once favored. Still, there is a chance. Solutions are still not what they should be and PH has the opportunity to fully integrate all objects and most case technologies. They only need to go back into the lab, by themselves, and not give away their secrets to Microsoft and Oracle, and others who benefited by partnering in the labs. IBM has traditionally repackaged everything and resold the same old widget over and over again. PH could do well to become and embedded product for the Linux world. The 3rd world is packed with Linux. A great way to force the leading technology !
products to integrate to PH.
<P> <B><I>"Edis, Robert" <Robert.Edis@blistex.com></I></B> wrote:
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=078335813-09042003>I agree with Chuck. As an Australian working in the USA I find the argument that AUD6,000 for a 5 user license a bit weak. PH consultant costs in the USA range from USD30 to USD200+ per hour. I remember the rates in Oz to be similar (in AUD). Given that a business app can be developed in PH - without requiring the client to purchase new hardware/Os/DBMS - in between 2/3 to 9/10 less time that in say VB or Java the license cost is irrelevant as MOST of the development costs will be in personnel.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=078335813-09042003></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=078335813-09042003>Compare AUD6,000 with what Oracle would charge for Developer?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=078335813-09042003></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=078335813-09042003>Blue</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> chuck.reinke [mailto:chuck.reinke@sbcglobal.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 02, 2003 2:39 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Craig Lalley; Jeff Hoffman; powerh-l@lists.swau.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: PowerHouse on Linux<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Well this is an interesting economic analysis. Programming talent must be little valued in Australia. In the US the cost you cite might buy 2 to 10 days of consulting effort in the US. If programmer makes about $10.00/ hr where you are, maybe it's a real advantage to develop and maintain a system in C++, visual basic or something like that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mr_lalley@yahoo.com href="mailto:mr_lalley@yahoo.com">Craig Lalley</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=wonicon@optushome.com.au href="mailto:wonicon@optushome.com.au">Jeff Hoffman</A> ; <A title=powerh-l@lists.swau.edu href="mailto:powerh-l@lists.swau.edu">powerh-l@lists.swau.edu</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 01, 2003 3:54 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: PowerHouse on Linux</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P>
<P> <B><I>Jeff Hoffman <<A href="mailto:wonicon@optushome.com.au">wonicon@optushome.com.au</A>></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<P>Another reason that PH will not advance is cost, I was just looking at PH<BR>8.41 on Win2000 and if I developed a system for a customer there would be<BR>immediately a $6,000 ($australian approx 3,000 $US) upfront cost for just<BR>the PH licenece (one developer / five user run-time / five user data<BR>access) I would then have to recover development costs. This would put the<BR>Kybo on most projects.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>I remember when the current OS that was happening was OS/2 vs the yet to be released Win95, circa 1995. That year I went to Comdex. </P>
<P>IBM was trying to sell thier developers kits for $395 (I think, it may have been more.)</P>
<P>Microsoft was giving them away by the handful. </P>
<P>The rest is history.</P>
<P>-Craig</P>
<P><BR>
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