Is there a place for 4GLs anymore?

Wed, 7 May 2003 11:04:35 -0400

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The reason I classified RPG and Mark IV as 4GLs (or 3 1/2) is totally my own
logic. I never saw them classified as such. The rationale was that they had
fixed logic that you modified based on your requirements. That made them
essentially non-procedural which, to me, is the basis of a 4GL.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon (Jarod) Hawks [mailto:hawksj@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 9:58 AM
To: David Morrison - Corporate; powerh-l@lists.swau.edu
Subject: RE: Is there a place for 4GLs anymore?

My take on RPG is that RPG I required cards that had
to be compiled for execution each run. RPG II was able
to be worked for the 5153 Workstations which were
compilable to SRT's or NEP-SRT's. Both were batch
intensive and typically a one-way input for app's.
But, they compiled. When RPG II added EXCPT processing
and better on-line processing was available and actual
data editing at the field level could happen, instead
of a second program taking a basic input file to edit.
There was no database underpinning. RPG III was a much
more highly evolved language for S/38 which support a
pseudo-rdb, that acted more like Image, with hybrid
lists on top of their indexes. Indexes upon indexes
occured until the convultion incurred a mass
entanglement because the programmers did not
understand volume processing, but rather, solved their
problem with the data. 

I guess the danger in the next generation of computer
geeks is that any 'shiny' object is attractive. So
many languages have come and gone and populated the
compute farms across the world. It would be a good
thing to cut down on languages and increase the power
of useful ones. I have great hopes that HP will
produce something unique, based on Digital and HP
technology, which really should not have gone by the
wayside the last decade, and to which most large
companies are now returning. At Pfizer, we knocked out
over 500 servers and standardized on single platforms
again. What a boon!
--- David Morrison - Corporate
<dmorrison@mcbrideelectric.com> wrote:
> Another 4GL language is Synon, now called Cool:2E. 
> For the AS/400 and ?
> 
> Bob Deskin referred to RPG as a 4GL, but I think 3GL
> is more accurate for it.
> 
> David Morrison
> McBride Electric
> 
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	stewm@canada.com [mailto:stewm@canada.com] 
> Sent:	Wednesday, May 07, 2003 5:21 AM
> To:	powerh-l@lists.swau.edu
> Subject:	Is there a place for 4GLs anymore?
> 
> 
> 
> Bob D., your definitions of the programming language
> generations are right in with what I was tought
> years
> ago in college.  I agree with these definitions. 
> What
> would define a 5GL...anyone know?  Is anything out
> there close to a 5GL?  Will there ever be a 5GL?
> 
> 1GL is machine language
> 2GL is symbolic machine language such as assembler
> 3GL is high level procedural such as COBOL, C, C++,
> Java
> 4GL a non-procedural (what not how) language that
> provides a large reduction in physical code. Most
> are
> dictionary based.
> 
> Mark 
> 
> Consultants Club Corp.
> Quote for the Day: Live by the sword, die by the
> sword.
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> must be a subscriber.
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> 
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> Scanned for viruses on 07 May 2003 12:29:19
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> Virus scanning by http://erado.com
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<TITLE>RE: Is there a place for 4GLs anymore?</TITLE>
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The reason I classified RPG and Mark IV as 4GLs (or 3 =
1/2) is totally my own logic. I never saw them classified as such. The =
rationale was that they had fixed logic that you modified based on your =
requirements. That made them essentially non-procedural which, to me, =
is the basis of a 4GL.

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bob</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Jon (Jarod) Hawks [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:hawksj@yahoo.com">mailto:hawksj@yahoo.com</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 9:58 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: David Morrison - Corporate; =
powerh-l@lists.swau.edu</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: RE: Is there a place for 4GLs =
anymore?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

My take on RPG is that RPG I required cards that =
had
 to be compiled for execution each run. RPG II was =
able
 to be worked for the 5153 Workstations which =
were
 compilable to SRT's or NEP-SRT's. Both were =
batch
 intensive and typically a one-way input for =
app's.
 But, they compiled. When RPG II added EXCPT =
processing
 and better on-line processing was available and =
actual
 data editing at the field level could happen, =
instead
 of a second program taking a basic input file to =
edit.
 There was no database underpinning. RPG III was a =
much
 more highly evolved language for S/38 which support =
a
 pseudo-rdb, that acted more like Image, with =
hybrid
 lists on top of their indexes. Indexes upon =
indexes
 occured until the convultion incurred a mass
 entanglement because the programmers did not
 understand volume processing, but rather, solved =
their
 problem with the data.

I guess the danger in the next generation of =
computer
 geeks is that any 'shiny' object is attractive. =
So
 many languages have come and gone and populated =
the
 compute farms across the world. It would be a =
good
 thing to cut down on languages and increase the =
power
 of useful ones. I have great hopes that HP =
will
 produce something unique, based on Digital and =
HP
 technology, which really should not have gone by =
the
 wayside the last decade, and to which most =
large
 companies are now returning. At Pfizer, we knocked =
out
 over 500 servers and standardized on single =
platforms
 again. What a boon!
 --- David Morrison - Corporate
 &lt;dmorrison@mcbrideelectric.com&gt; wrote:
 &gt; Another 4GL language is Synon, now called =
Cool:2E. 
 &gt; For the AS/400 and ?
 &gt; 
 &gt; Bob Deskin referred to RPG as a 4GL, but I =
think 3GL
 &gt; is more accurate for it.
 &gt; 
 &gt; David Morrison
 &gt; McBride Electric
 &gt; 
 &gt;&nbsp; -----Original Message-----
 &gt; From: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; stewm@canada.com [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:stewm@canada.com">mailto:stewm@canada.com</A>] 
 &gt; Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 5:21 AM
 &gt; To:&nbsp;&nbsp; powerh-l@lists.swau.edu
 &gt; Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Is there =
a place for 4GLs anymore?
 &gt; 
 &gt; 
 &gt; 
 &gt; Bob D., your definitions of the programming =
language
 &gt; generations are right in with what I was =
tought
 &gt; years
 &gt; ago in college.&nbsp; I agree with these =
definitions. 
 &gt; What
 &gt; would define a 5GL...anyone know?&nbsp; Is =
anything out
 &gt; there close to a 5GL?&nbsp; Will there ever be =
a 5GL?
 &gt; 
 &gt; 1GL is machine language
 &gt; 2GL is symbolic machine language such as =
assembler
 &gt; 3GL is high level procedural such as COBOL, C, =
C++,
 &gt; Java
 &gt; 4GL a non-procedural (what not how) language =
that
 &gt; provides a large reduction in physical code. =
Most
 &gt; are
 &gt; dictionary based.
 &gt; 
 &gt; Mark 
 &gt; 
 &gt; Consultants Club Corp.
 &gt; Quote for the Day: Live by the sword, die by =
the
 &gt; sword.
 &gt; =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =
=3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D
 &gt; =3D =3D
 &gt; Mailing list: powerh-l@lists.swau.edu
 &gt; Subscribe: &quot;subscribe&quot; in message =
body to
 &gt; powerh-l-request@lists.swau.edu
 &gt; Unsubscribe: &quot;unsubscribe =
&lt;password&gt;&quot; in message
 &gt; body to powerh-l-request@lists.swau.edu
 &gt; <A =
HREF=3D"http://lists.swau.edu/mailman/listinfo/powerh-l" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://lists.swau.edu/mailman/listinfo/powerh-l</A></F=
ONT>
 &gt; This list is closed, thus to post to the list =
you
 &gt; must be a subscriber.
 &gt; 
 &gt; 
 &gt; =
_________________________________________________
 &gt; Scanned for viruses on 07 May 2003 =
12:29:19
 &gt; No viruses found.
 &gt; Virus scanning by <A HREF=3D"http://erado.com" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://erado.com</A>
 &gt; 
 &gt; 
 &gt; 
 &gt; =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =
=3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D
 &gt; =3D =3D
 &gt; Mailing list: powerh-l@lists.swau.edu
 &gt; Subscribe: &quot;subscribe&quot; in message =
body to
 &gt; powerh-l-request@lists.swau.edu
 &gt; Unsubscribe: &quot;unsubscribe =
&lt;password&gt;&quot; in message
 &gt; body to powerh-l-request@lists.swau.edu
 &gt; <A =
HREF=3D"http://lists.swau.edu/mailman/listinfo/powerh-l" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://lists.swau.edu/mailman/listinfo/powerh-l</A></F=
ONT>
 &gt; This list is closed, thus to post to the list =
you
 &gt; must be a subscriber.

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>__________________________________</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Do you Yahoo!?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. =
Bingo.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A HREF=3D"http://search.yahoo.com" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://search.yahoo.com</A></FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This message may contain privileged and/or =
confidential information.&nbsp; If you have received this e-mail in =
error or are not the intended recipient, you may not use, copy, =
disseminate or distribute it; do not open any attachments, delete it =
immediately from your system and notify the sender promptly by e-mail =
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