Is there a place for 4GLs anymore?

Tue, 6 May 2003 07:27:50 -0400

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Probably on some definitions. There's a question as to what that means.
Strictly speaking, COBOL could be hardware independent if you were careful.
So is PowerHouse. At least in terms of using common source code. You still
have to recompile. Java goes further.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Lalley [mailto:mr_lalley@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 10:59 PM
To: Deskin, Bob
Subject: RE: Is there a place for 4GLs anymore?

Bob,

Wasn't hardware independancce also a feature/requirement of 4GL's?

-Craig

--- "Deskin, Bob" <Bob.Deskin@cognos.com> wrote:
> I have to put my .02 worth on this one but I will stay away from who the
> competitors might be. Mainly because almost anything can be a competitor
as
> long as they're fighting for the same business.
> 
> First off most people are thinking of two things when they say 4GL. One is
> the actual fourth generation language concept. The other is a productivity
> tool. While PowerHouse is both, not all 4GLs might be considered
> productivity tools. And certainly not all productivity tools are 4GLs.
> 
> A productivity tool gives at least a 10 to 1 productivity improvement over
> what it's trying to replace. The question is whether the improvement is
only
> development or includes maintenance as well.
> 
> 1GL is machine language
> 2GL is symbolic machine language such as assembler
> 3GL is high level procedural such as COBOL, C, C++, Java
> 
> Note that this has nothing to do with object orientation or structured
> coding, both of which improve the productivity of 3GLs.
> 
> VB is procedural, even though it's event oriented. I could argue that
> PowerHouse is event oriented. It all depends on what events you're talking
> about.
> 
> Languages such as RPG are forms based 4GLs.
> 
> So, what's a 4GL (as I dust off my 20 year old presentations)? Simply put,
> it's a non-procedural (what not how) language that provides a large
> reduction in physical code. Most are dictionary based. It has built-in
> reliability and integrity controls and intelligent defaults with
overrides.
> Some definitions require the 4GL to also be a productivity tool. I suppose
> there's not much point otherwise.
> 
> QUIZ and QTP are pure 4GLs. QUICK (QDESIGN) is a bit of a hybrid, but the
> language is non-procedural (with the unfortunate title of procedures).
> 
> So that's what it is. Now why?
> 
> Many years ago, 4GLs were put forth as the solution to the IT (then called
> DP or MIS) backlog by allowing the end user to create their own
> applications. That was a disaster, because any application past something
> very simple required technical knowledge of file systems, operating
systems,
> systems analysis and design and so on. 4GLs got a bad name. Of course the
> early ones were aimed at the end user and weren't industrial strength.
> 
> Along came PowerHouse and its competitors.
> 
> At the time, many companies hadn't even started with computers. Many more
> were using service bureaus that used mainframe IBM equipment (that is
> dwarfed in power by today's PCs). "Minicomputers" were really just
starting
> - VAX and HP3000. It was a perfect market for 4GLs and productivity tools.
> Companies were fighting for scarce programming resources. Users were
> screaming for applications, especially add-on reports.
> 
> What's happening today? Most companies have their applications. They can't
> afford to rewrite everything. If they really feel behind and can afford
it,
> they look at packaged systems. But there are still add-ons. And the
> inevitable request for new reports. I see a need for 4GLs as add-on tools.
> 
> And what about the web. The web today is like IT 20 years ago. Companies
are
> just starting to get into it. Sure there are lots of web pages, but most
are
> static. There's a huge demand for dynamic, data-driven web pages. I
recently
> read that the web development business will be 7 billion dollars over the
> next few years. I'd love a piece of that, and I'm sure many other
companies
> would as well. This is the new frontier for 4GLs. Because most of the
coding
> is still done with procedural languages, be they C++, Java, or ASPs and
they
> require too many development resources.
> 
> Is there a place for 4GLs? Absolutely.
> 
> Bob
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edis, Robert [mailto:Robert.Edis@blistex.com]
> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 3:45 PM
> To: Powerh-L (E-mail)
> Subject: Is there a place for 4GLs anymore?
> 
> 
> Dear colleagues, two questions if I may?
> 
> 1. Is there a place for 4GLs in the IT industry anymore?  At least for
> independent products (i.e. excludes Oracle Developer).  A good definition
of
> what a 4GL is might help.
> 
> 2. What are the products that compete in the 4GL market space with
> PowerHouse/Axiant?
> 
> In regards to the latter I know of:
> 
> Oracle Developer
> Forte (has does this one compare to PH?)
> Speedware
> Progress
> 
> but I believe there are quite a few others.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Blue
> 
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Mailing list: powerh-l@lists.swau.edu
> Subscribe: "subscribe" in message body to powerh-l-request@lists.swau.edu
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> powerh-l-request@lists.swau.edu
> http://lists.swau.edu/mailman/listinfo/powerh-l
> This list is closed, thus to post to the list you must be a subscriber.
> 
> This message may contain privileged and/or confidential information.  If
you
> have received this e-mail in error or are not the intended recipient, you
> may not use, copy, disseminate or distribute it; do not open any
> attachments, delete it immediately from your system and notify the sender
> promptly by e-mail that you have done so.  Thank you.
> 

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<TITLE>RE: Is there a place for 4GLs anymore?</TITLE>
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Probably on some definitions. There's a question as =
to what that means. Strictly speaking, COBOL could be hardware =
independent if you were careful. So is PowerHouse. At least in terms of =
using common source code. You still have to recompile. Java goes =
further.

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bob</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Craig Lalley [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:mr_lalley@yahoo.com">mailto:mr_lalley@yahoo.com</A>]</FON=
T>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 10:59 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Deskin, Bob</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: RE: Is there a place for 4GLs =
anymore?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bob,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Wasn't hardware independancce also a =
feature/requirement of 4GL's?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-Craig</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

--- &quot;Deskin, Bob&quot; =
&lt;Bob.Deskin@cognos.com&gt; wrote:
 &gt; I have to put my .02 worth on this one but I =
will stay away from who the
 &gt; competitors might be. Mainly because almost =
anything can be a competitor as
 &gt; long as they're fighting for the same =
business.
 &gt; 
 &gt; First off most people are thinking of two =
things when they say 4GL. One is
 &gt; the actual fourth generation language concept. =
The other is a productivity
 &gt; tool. While PowerHouse is both, not all 4GLs =
might be considered
 &gt; productivity tools. And certainly not all =
productivity tools are 4GLs.
 &gt; 
 &gt; A productivity tool gives at least a 10 to 1 =
productivity improvement over
 &gt; what it's trying to replace. The question is =
whether the improvement is only
 &gt; development or includes maintenance as =
well.
 &gt; 
 &gt; 1GL is machine language
 &gt; 2GL is symbolic machine language such as =
assembler
 &gt; 3GL is high level procedural such as COBOL, C, =
C++, Java
 &gt; 
 &gt; Note that this has nothing to do with object =
orientation or structured
 &gt; coding, both of which improve the productivity =
of 3GLs.
 &gt; 
 &gt; VB is procedural, even though it's event =
oriented. I could argue that
 &gt; PowerHouse is event oriented. It all depends on =
what events you're talking
 &gt; about.
 &gt; 
 &gt; Languages such as RPG are forms based =
4GLs.
 &gt; 
 &gt; So, what's a 4GL (as I dust off my 20 year old =
presentations)? Simply put,
 &gt; it's a non-procedural (what not how) language =
that provides a large
 &gt; reduction in physical code. Most are dictionary =
based. It has built-in
 &gt; reliability and integrity controls and =
intelligent defaults with overrides.
 &gt; Some definitions require the 4GL to also be a =
productivity tool. I suppose
 &gt; there's not much point otherwise.
 &gt; 
 &gt; QUIZ and QTP are pure 4GLs. QUICK (QDESIGN) is =
a bit of a hybrid, but the
 &gt; language is non-procedural (with the =
unfortunate title of procedures).
 &gt; 
 &gt; So that's what it is. Now why?
 &gt; 
 &gt; Many years ago, 4GLs were put forth as the =
solution to the IT (then called
 &gt; DP or MIS) backlog by allowing the end user to =
create their own
 &gt; applications. That was a disaster, because any =
application past something
 &gt; very simple required technical knowledge of =
file systems, operating systems,
 &gt; systems analysis and design and so on. 4GLs got =
a bad name. Of course the
 &gt; early ones were aimed at the end user and =
weren't industrial strength.
 &gt; 
 &gt; Along came PowerHouse and its =
competitors.
 &gt; 
 &gt; At the time, many companies hadn't even started =
with computers. Many more
 &gt; were using service bureaus that used mainframe =
IBM equipment (that is
 &gt; dwarfed in power by today's PCs). =
&quot;Minicomputers&quot; were really just starting
 &gt; - VAX and HP3000. It was a perfect market for =
4GLs and productivity tools.
 &gt; Companies were fighting for scarce programming =
resources. Users were
 &gt; screaming for applications, especially add-on =
reports.
 &gt; 
 &gt; What's happening today? Most companies have =
their applications. They can't
 &gt; afford to rewrite everything. If they really =
feel behind and can afford it,
 &gt; they look at packaged systems. But there are =
still add-ons. And the
 &gt; inevitable request for new reports. I see a =
need for 4GLs as add-on tools.
 &gt; 
 &gt; And what about the web. The web today is like =
IT 20 years ago. Companies are
 &gt; just starting to get into it. Sure there are =
lots of web pages, but most are
 &gt; static. There's a huge demand for dynamic, =
data-driven web pages. I recently
 &gt; read that the web development business will be =
7 billion dollars over the
 &gt; next few years. I'd love a piece of that, and =
I'm sure many other companies
 &gt; would as well. This is the new frontier for =
4GLs. Because most of the coding
 &gt; is still done with procedural languages, be =
they C++, Java, or ASPs and they
 &gt; require too many development resources.
 &gt; 
 &gt; Is there a place for 4GLs? Absolutely.
 &gt; 
 &gt; Bob
 &gt; 
 &gt; -----Original Message-----
 &gt; From: Edis, Robert [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:Robert.Edis@blistex.com">mailto:Robert.Edis@blistex.com</=
A>]
 &gt; Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 3:45 PM
 &gt; To: Powerh-L (E-mail)
 &gt; Subject: Is there a place for 4GLs =
anymore?
 &gt; 
 &gt; 
 &gt; Dear colleagues, two questions if I may?
 &gt; 
 &gt; 1. Is there a place for 4GLs in the IT industry =
anymore?&nbsp; At least for
 &gt; independent products (i.e. excludes Oracle =
Developer).&nbsp; A good definition of
 &gt; what a 4GL is might help.
 &gt; 
 &gt; 2. What are the products that compete in the =
4GL market space with
 &gt; PowerHouse/Axiant?
 &gt; 
 &gt; In regards to the latter I know of:
 &gt; 
 &gt; Oracle Developer
 &gt; Forte (has does this one compare to PH?)
 &gt; Speedware
 &gt; Progress
 &gt; 
 &gt; but I believe there are quite a few =
others.
 &gt; 
 &gt; Regards,
 &gt; 
 &gt; Blue
 &gt; 
 &gt; 
 &gt; =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =
=3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D
 &gt; Mailing list: powerh-l@lists.swau.edu
 &gt; Subscribe: &quot;subscribe&quot; in message =
body to powerh-l-request@lists.swau.edu
 &gt; Unsubscribe: &quot;unsubscribe =
&lt;password&gt;&quot; in message body to
 &gt; powerh-l-request@lists.swau.edu
 &gt; <A =
HREF=3D"http://lists.swau.edu/mailman/listinfo/powerh-l" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://lists.swau.edu/mailman/listinfo/powerh-l</A></F=
ONT>
 &gt; This list is closed, thus to post to the list =
you must be a subscriber.
 &gt; 
 &gt; This message may contain privileged and/or =
confidential information.&nbsp; If you
 &gt; have received this e-mail in error or are not =
the intended recipient, you
 &gt; may not use, copy, disseminate or distribute =
it; do not open any
 &gt; attachments, delete it immediately from your =
system and notify the sender
 &gt; promptly by e-mail that you have done so.&nbsp; =
Thank you.
 &gt;

__________________________________
 Do you Yahoo!?
 The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. =
Bingo.
 <A HREF=3D"http://search.yahoo.com" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://search.yahoo.com</A>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This message may contain privileged and/or =
confidential information.&nbsp; If you have received this e-mail in =
error or are not the intended recipient, you may not use, copy, =
disseminate or distribute it; do not open any attachments, delete it =
immediately from your system and notify the sender promptly by e-mail =
that you have done so.&nbsp; Thank you.</FONT></P>

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