Is there a place for 4GLs anymore?

Mon, 5 May 2003 22:23:31 -0400

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I have to put my .02 worth on this one but I will stay away from who the
competitors might be. Mainly because almost anything can be a competitor as
long as they're fighting for the same business.

First off most people are thinking of two things when they say 4GL. One is
the actual fourth generation language concept. The other is a productivity
tool. While PowerHouse is both, not all 4GLs might be considered
productivity tools. And certainly not all productivity tools are 4GLs.

A productivity tool gives at least a 10 to 1 productivity improvement over
what it's trying to replace. The question is whether the improvement is only
development or includes maintenance as well.

1GL is machine language
2GL is symbolic machine language such as assembler
3GL is high level procedural such as COBOL, C, C++, Java

Note that this has nothing to do with object orientation or structured
coding, both of which improve the productivity of 3GLs.

VB is procedural, even though it's event oriented. I could argue that
PowerHouse is event oriented. It all depends on what events you're talking
about.

Languages such as RPG are forms based 4GLs.

So, what's a 4GL (as I dust off my 20 year old presentations)? Simply put,
it's a non-procedural (what not how) language that provides a large
reduction in physical code. Most are dictionary based. It has built-in
reliability and integrity controls and intelligent defaults with overrides.
Some definitions require the 4GL to also be a productivity tool. I suppose
there's not much point otherwise.

QUIZ and QTP are pure 4GLs. QUICK (QDESIGN) is a bit of a hybrid, but the
language is non-procedural (with the unfortunate title of procedures).

So that's what it is. Now why?

Many years ago, 4GLs were put forth as the solution to the IT (then called
DP or MIS) backlog by allowing the end user to create their own
applications. That was a disaster, because any application past something
very simple required technical knowledge of file systems, operating systems,
systems analysis and design and so on. 4GLs got a bad name. Of course the
early ones were aimed at the end user and weren't industrial strength.

Along came PowerHouse and its competitors.

At the time, many companies hadn't even started with computers. Many more
were using service bureaus that used mainframe IBM equipment (that is
dwarfed in power by today's PCs). "Minicomputers" were really just starting
- VAX and HP3000. It was a perfect market for 4GLs and productivity tools.
Companies were fighting for scarce programming resources. Users were
screaming for applications, especially add-on reports.

What's happening today? Most companies have their applications. They can't
afford to rewrite everything. If they really feel behind and can afford it,
they look at packaged systems. But there are still add-ons. And the
inevitable request for new reports. I see a need for 4GLs as add-on tools.

And what about the web. The web today is like IT 20 years ago. Companies are
just starting to get into it. Sure there are lots of web pages, but most are
static. There's a huge demand for dynamic, data-driven web pages. I recently
read that the web development business will be 7 billion dollars over the
next few years. I'd love a piece of that, and I'm sure many other companies
would as well. This is the new frontier for 4GLs. Because most of the coding
is still done with procedural languages, be they C++, Java, or ASPs and they
require too many development resources.

Is there a place for 4GLs? Absolutely.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Edis, Robert [mailto:Robert.Edis@blistex.com]
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 3:45 PM
To: Powerh-L (E-mail)
Subject: Is there a place for 4GLs anymore?

Dear colleagues, two questions if I may?

1. Is there a place for 4GLs in the IT industry anymore?  At least for
independent products (i.e. excludes Oracle Developer).  A good definition of
what a 4GL is might help.

2. What are the products that compete in the 4GL market space with
PowerHouse/Axiant?

In regards to the latter I know of:

Oracle Developer
Forte (has does this one compare to PH?)
Speedware
Progress

but I believe there are quite a few others.

Regards,

Blue

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<TITLE>RE: Is there a place for 4GLs anymore?</TITLE>
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I have to put my .02 worth on this one but I will =
stay away from who the competitors might be. Mainly because almost =
anything can be a competitor as long as they're fighting for the same =
business.

First off most people are thinking of two things when =
they say 4GL. One is the actual fourth generation language concept. The =
other is a productivity tool. While PowerHouse is both, not all 4GLs =
might be considered productivity tools. And certainly not all =
productivity tools are 4GLs.

A productivity tool gives at least a 10 to 1 =
productivity improvement over what it's trying to replace. The question =
is whether the improvement is only development or includes maintenance =
as well.

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>1GL is machine language</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>2GL is symbolic machine language such as =
assembler</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>3GL is high level procedural such as COBOL, C, C++, =
Java</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Note that this has nothing to do with object =
orientation or structured coding, both of which improve the =
productivity of 3GLs.</FONT></P>

VB is procedural, even though it's event oriented. I =
could argue that PowerHouse is event oriented. It all depends on what =
events you're talking about.

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Languages such as RPG are forms based 4GLs.</FONT>
</P>

So, what's a 4GL (as I dust off my 20 year old =
presentations)? Simply put, it's a non-procedural (what not how) =
language that provides a large reduction in physical code. Most are =
dictionary based. It has built-in reliability and integrity controls =
and intelligent defaults with overrides. Some definitions require the =
4GL to also be a productivity tool. I suppose there's not much point =
otherwise.

QUIZ and QTP are pure 4GLs. QUICK (QDESIGN) is a bit =
of a hybrid, but the language is non-procedural (with the unfortunate =
title of procedures).

So that's what it is. Now why?

Many years ago, 4GLs were put forth as the solution =
to the IT (then called DP or MIS) backlog by allowing the end user to =
create their own applications. That was a disaster, because any =
application past something very simple required technical knowledge of =
file systems, operating systems, systems analysis and design and so on. =
4GLs got a bad name. Of course the early ones were aimed at the end =
user and weren't industrial strength.

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Along came PowerHouse and its competitors.</FONT>
</P>

At the time, many companies hadn't even started with =
computers. Many more were using service bureaus that used mainframe IBM =
equipment (that is dwarfed in power by today's PCs). =
&quot;Minicomputers&quot; were really just starting - VAX and HP3000. =
It was a perfect market for 4GLs and productivity tools. Companies were =
fighting for scarce programming resources. Users were screaming for =
applications, especially add-on reports.

What's happening today? Most companies have their =
applications. They can't afford to rewrite everything. If they really =
feel behind and can afford it, they look at packaged systems. But there =
are still add-ons. And the inevitable request for new reports. I see a =
need for 4GLs as add-on tools.

And what about the web. The web today is like IT 20 =
years ago. Companies are just starting to get into it. Sure there are =
lots of web pages, but most are static. There's a huge demand for =
dynamic, data-driven web pages. I recently read that the web =
development business will be 7 billion dollars over the next few years. =
I'd love a piece of that, and I'm sure many other companies would as =
well. This is the new frontier for 4GLs. Because most of the coding is =
still done with procedural languages, be they C++, Java, or ASPs and =
they require too many development resources.

Is there a place for 4GLs? Absolutely.

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bob</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Edis, Robert [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:Robert.Edis@blistex.com">mailto:Robert.Edis@blistex.com</=
A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 3:45 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Powerh-L (E-mail)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Is there a place for 4GLs anymore?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Dear colleagues, two questions if I may?</FONT>
</P>

1. Is there a place for 4GLs in the IT industry =
anymore?&nbsp; At least for
 independent products (i.e. excludes Oracle =
Developer).&nbsp; A good definition of
 what a 4GL is might help.

2. What are the products that compete in the 4GL =
market space with
 PowerHouse/Axiant?

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>In regards to the latter I know of:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Oracle Developer</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Forte (has does this one compare to PH?)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Speedware</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Progress</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>but I believe there are quite a few others.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Regards,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Blue</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

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<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Mailing list: powerh-l@lists.swau.edu</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subscribe: &quot;subscribe&quot; in message body to =
powerh-l-request@lists.swau.edu</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This message may contain privileged and/or =
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